The (ever-evolving) theory of evolution has nothing to say about the origin of life. If you think this is a “fly in the ointment,” then I would respond that you do not understand evolution. Please read “Why Evolution is True” by Jerry Coyne. Every point raised in your JW “Evolution Book” is answered there, lucidly and thoroughly.

Blades of grass and foliage returning in the spring are explained perfectly by well-documented natural processes. I say, if you insist on positing a supreme being as the prime mover for these (entirely natural and not remotely mysterious) processes, you are the one required to provide proof.

In any case, thanks for stating the opposing view so thoughtfully and respectfully. Your nuanced reply was uncommon and refreshing.

I have not read every post in this exchange, but I have read–with interest–probably 25% or more, enough to get the gist of things and the various contributors’ points of view. It is reminiscent of many such wrangling debates I have been involved in over the decades, especially those on the Internet. By the way, some of the posts here are quite well-thought out, well-researched and well-written! Bravo!

I typically avoid these debates, and my desire is to avoid this one. Such debates are exhausting and quickly devolve into endless loops of one’s trying to untangle someone else’s misrepresentation of what that one thought he or she had clearly stated. For these reasons I am not seeking to debate anyone here and do not intend to reply. But if you would, please kindly permit me to weigh in with my opinion, my point of view, and I will disappear as quickly as I came.

“Oh, sure, Robert, you just want to drop a bomb and leave. How brave of you!” No. Please refer to the first two sentences of the previous paragraph, especially the second one.

On the welcome page at Robin’s Web site there is a photograph of a hand-written sign tacked up on a telephone pole (what the ancient Greeks might call a “stauros” if it has no cross members) and that sign says: “Think that you might be wrong.” That is very good–no, excellent–advice! Please be assured: I question myself every day of my life as to whether I might be wrong. Seriously, I do, on the big things and on the little things. If one closes oneself to the possibility that he or she may be wrong, then I submit that one is an arrogant fool and will more than likely end up on the arrogant fool ash heap of history, from which the smoke ascends day and night forever.

That said, I fully understand the unwillingness a person may have in believing there is an all-powerful Creator. If a person is pondering the possibility and looks toward religion for satisfying answers, he or she is bludgeoned immediately and mercilessly with such a dizzying array of conflicting interpretations, each purporting to be the only correct one, well, how could anyone blame that person for wanting to run away screaming? Couple that with all the unspeakable atrocities committed in the name of God throughout history, and the idea that there is no God becomes more appealing. Then, like water seeking the path of least resistance, some come to the conclusion that it is pointless to try to prove the “unprovable,” so why even bother? “We are here,” they reason, “and that is all we know for sure. Therefore, it is all I will accept.”

They are not without company, and they are not without comforters. The biblical Higher Criticism movement, which gained popularity beginning in mid 18th century Europe, laid the groundwork for people to accept the Theory of Evolution a hundred years later. Suddenly there were tools available to the educated class with which they could begin to tear down this “antiquated notion” that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” It was chic. It was vogue. And it stuck.

At this point it would be perilously easy to slip into one of those interminable debates about carbon dating, potassium-argon dating, the fossil record, etc., ad nauseum. “Been there, done that” so many times, I refuse to go down that painful and fruitless path again. But each time I did, I purposely and actively considered that I might be wrong about special creation, and each time I could lay my head down at night satisfied that I did not share ancestors with apes and that my ancestor, Adam, was directly created in the image of God.

There are flies in the ointment of Evolution theory, the most significant of which is the origin of life itself. ‘Nuff said about that.

I see proof of God’s existence in every blade of grass. I find assurance of Jehovah’s promise of the resurrection every Spring when I see the emergence of fresh, new foliage sprouting forth from every tree. As glorious as that is, it will pale in comparison to the realization of welcoming billions back from the grave!

Yes, there have been times in the past when Jehovah commanded the extermination of entire populations of cities. It seems unthinkable to us that a so-called “God of love” could do such a thing. If you think such actions recorded in the Bible are proof that God does not exist, think that you might be wrong. Consider that if the Creator does exist, it stands to reason that our perspective would be vastly different from his. So do not make the mistake of projecting our limited view onto God. Rather try putting yourself in his place, seeing things from his perspective.

Start with the biblical teaching that we are all dead to God already anyway, due to our imperfection, and that it is only by his forbearance that we were allowed to come into existence in the first place. Enter Jehovah’s purpose to redeem humankind through the nation of his choosing and the nations round about, many of whom, steeped in worship of demon gods, child sacrifice and disgusting sex worship, stood in opposition to that nation, Israel. Then consider that, as Jehovah explained to Moses, he would make his name known. “I am that I am,” or more accurately, “I shall prove to be what I shall prove to be,” meaning: “I will become whatever it is necessary for me to become in order to fulfill my promises and my purpose.” That is the expanded meaning of his very name itself, Jehovah, or Yahweh, which in ancient Hebrew is the causative form, imperfect state, of the verb hawah’ (become). In making themselves enemies of God’s chosen nation, those nations made themselves enemies of God. Taking into account the above-mentioned circumstances, Jehovah, in backing and protecting his people, fulfilling the promise he made to Abraham, became to those nations a god of war. As Creator, he exercised his prerogative to disallow the continued existence of his enemies. He has the right to do so, and in so doing he provided a warning example to all future generations of what will be the ultimate outcome for those who choose to oppose him. Note that people who would otherwise have been killed with the rest, but who went out of their way to make peace with Israel, were spared, e.g. Rahab and the Gibeonites.

I consider every day whether I might be wrong. My conclusion thus far is that it takes a great deal more faith to believe life accidentally sprang from nothing than it does to believe that life, in all its great diversity, exists as a result of intelligent design. As stated, I do understand the opposing point of view; however I must respectfully disagree with it.

Thanks for allowing me to express my opinion. I will take my leave now.

No points, but thanks for playing!

Good/evil are concepts that religions taught us. It would be stupid to try to characterize religions with these concepts, because it would implicitly mean that we accept the scheme with which religions brainwashed us.

FAIL.

Thank you for the forum, and for your input, energy, and thoughts. In direct response to the points above (where you use my name specifically):
I don’t believe I have ever “complained” that atheists are “too negative”. I wonder why you included me in that statement by name…
From my own personal experience, I am also well aware that I will find answers; I already know a number of them . I’m quite strong-minded, strong-willed, and intelligent and I have been in (and out) of this Christian camp for 26 years now, and in that time I have always been open to engage in the tough questions (and in forums such as this one) with believers and non-believers alike. I am well aware that I could find an answer to each and every one of my questions (and yours) in just about any flavor and color I might prefer. Although I may be coming from a different conclusion than you and than John, you shouldn’t think I am any less a skeptic.
You can be confident that I am consistently looking for a deeper truth, and I’m not one to ever fully trust any one person’s answer about anything (we are all colored by our own experiences). While for the sake of relationship, I may be agreeable, I have never allowed anyone to tell me what to think. I think you probably know me well enough to see the truth in that.

For my sum up I would say to each of you, as dangerous as you might feel religion – or lack of religion, may be. I say the real danger is in judging one another without truly understanding one another. I would encourage you all to ask more questions and make fewer judgments. I think when we are open to learning, questioning all our preconceptions, we get closer to truth (which may not be the same as answers). There should be no fear in questioning what we think we know and even what we know we know. I believe the truth should be able to stand in the face of ALL OUR experiences.
Don’t let your ego stand in the way of learning.

**chirp chirp**

Uh? Hello? Anyone here?

(tumbleweed blows across main street – a dog barks in the distance)

Actually I was going to return on Monday with my final comments. I spent WAY TOO MUCH time running my last comments through my head, banging myself upside the head by trying to sound “glib” – coming up with Jason’s arguments, John’s arguments, etc. Rattling this here and there.

Since I was a minor player in this exchange here’s my last comment(s).

1. As for the Bible, I think I said early on that I gave no real stock to the “Old Testament” and looked upon the “New Testament” for more truth.

2. As for being a Christian, I do believe in the Jesus Christ that said that the two greatest commandments are to “Love God” and “Love your Neighbor.” There’s nothing in those two commandments that talk about marginalizing others, killing, protesting funerals of AIDS victims, popping out kids by the dozens, etc.

3. For the point of “cafeteria Christians” that Jason used…I spent the weekend with a priest and his wife. The same man who married Miriam and myself. Friends since I was 17 years of age. Good, honest, people struggling like we all struggle. I went to a beautiful church yesterday, stained glass windows, old people clinging to a hope of an eternal life, children confused and curious as to what mom has dragged them to, crippled people possibly hoping for a miracle or, at the very least, hoping for hope. Religion poison everything? I don’t know. Unitentionally enabling a sick and destructive system? Honestly…I didn’t see it. I witnessed people in a community trying to connect with something beyond themselves.

4. John asked about my relationship with God. It’s simply a desire to seek that which I can’t see or feel but sense is there. Connecting through a church, a community and through acts and rituals that enhance that connection to the “other.”

5. Though the initial comment was “Religion Poison’s Everything” and then turned into “Does God Exist?” – I still say that we should be truly judged on what we believe and how we show that belief in the world and to our fellow man and woman and member of the LGBTQ community.

6. I strongly encourage all of us who participated in this “banter” to work towards the vision(s) that we feel will bring more peace, unity, love, compassion to this broken world. Whether it’s Jason’s book “Ex-Witness to the Truth” (feel free to use that title), John producing “Weird” Al Yankovic’s song “Hawkins is Just All Right With Me” (sung to the tune of “Jesus is Just All Right With Me”), Cami and Jason and I making that documentary we want to make (seriously) or Korin and Jamie and Eric and Keith doing whatever they’re doing…we all have a vision as to the future and we all have an obligation to see if we can make that vision happen…or come to the conclusion to see if it’s really plausible.

7. Lastly…As much as we might not feel it, or see it, I do honestly think that this world is sloooooooowly changing for the better (Prop 8 not withstanding). I do honestly think that people ARE becoming more tolerant of those we don’t understand, more loving of those we fear, more hopefull for those who don’t have hope. The world IS brighter, the glass IS half full and more positive change IS coming.

Thank you Jason, and everyone else who participated.

Matt….out.

(saloon doors slowly creak shut and footsteps and spur jangles fade into the distance)

Roll credits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

When I say “I don’t believe in your god” or even (when I’m feeling more cantankerous) “I am an atheist”… I am simply saying that the available evidence has not convinced me. I am not saying “there could not possibly be a god” nor am I making a case for a wider system of belief.

To the end, it appeared that this point was lost on the Christians in this thread – witness Jamie’s repeated insistence that atheists are making “absolute” claims, etc.

I have learned much during the course of this conversation. If the Christians take away one nugget, I would hope that it is this: To say I am an atheist merely means that I have seen no convincing evidence for the existence of god, therefore I don’t believe in him. It does NOT mean: “There absolutely cannot possibly be a god,” nor does it imply any wider “system of belief” or set of moral guidelines.

To Korin and others who complain that atheists are “too negative” – would you have said the same to those fighting for civil rights, who pointed out the long history of racial oppression in our country? Try to understand that, to the non-theist, it appears that the history of religion is a history of oppression, violence and mental slavery; that is why I keep pointing out the negative. And I will continue to do so. As I said before, you’ve got millions of Christians like yourselves, all pointing out the glorious positive side of your faith and religion. Don’t begrudge the few voices who push you to acknowledge the rest of the story.

Korin – you said you would follow up, do some research on the more unpleasant things found in the Bible. From personal experience, I can guarantee you that you WILL find answers to those questions. There is no shortage of apologists, eager to explain away those scriptures. I would ask you, though, to look a bit deeper. Don’t simply be satisfied that answers exist; ask yourself honestly whether those answers are good enough.

Thanks again, everyone.